Cthulhu Claus Holiday Card Backer Button for Our Kickstarter Project

I designed the first button to hand out to our Cthulhu Claus Holiday Card project backers. It uses a piece of art from the first series of cards. What are your thoughts?

If you want to become a backer of our project, please visit Kickstarter and join in.

And Now is the Time on Sprockets When We Self-Promote -- Cthulhu Claus Holiday Cards Season 2

I'm very excited to announce that Twin Suns Entertainment - a company that I and a couple of friends started in 2011 - launched our second Kickstarter campaign today with Cthulhu Claus Holiday Cards Series 2.

When we launched the first series of cards in 2012, Twin Suns Entertainment had already attempted a failed Kickstarter program for a documentary about gamers that was going to be directed by our own Wes Kobernick. My wife Jody came up with the idea of doing a series of Holiday Cards based around a doodle she had done depicting Cthulhu as Santa Claus. My partners, Wes and Joel, thought it was a very good idea and so our project was researched, price quotes obtained, contracts with Jody Lindke and Kenneth Hite negotiated, and project launched. During the process, we teamed up with Game Salute as our distributor for those who wanted to purchase the cards after the Kickstarter campaign. You can still buy cards from them at this link.

Here is some sample art from the first campaign:

This image is a much cleaned up and colorized version of the illustration that inspired the first campaign.

The Cthulhu Claus sleigh ride illustration is probably my favorite illustration in the first set. I love not only the design on the "reindeer," but also the way Jody used color.

These are what the cards look like in the box of 25. There are five cards of each illustration that Jody did for the piece.

Even Cthulhu like's cookies. I really like how Jody used the image of frosting and red hots to represent a stomach wound and intestines.

And if Cthulhu can eat a cookies, why can't we. I hope that some day we'll be able to put together a Cthulhu Claus cookie cutter, but talk about an expensive proposition for the initial set up. And I thought trying to get die-cut stickers was a pain.

The new series of cards will have a slightly different look as the inspirations for the illustrations will come from multiple sources and stem from another project we are working on at present, but here is a glimpse.

I really think that Jody has knocked the ball out of the park with this illustration, but we'll see if you agree.  If you want to back our latest project, you can do so my clicking on the widget below. Please spread the word to your friends.

The Big Bang Theory and D&D: One Geek's Perspective

Those of you who visit this blog with any regularity know that I am not merely a fan of Geek Culture, but I'm a bit of an evangelist as well.  I want the world to have the same love for Geek Culture that I do.  So portrayals, and reactions to portrayals, of Geeks and Hobbyists are something that I pay close attention to.  I am also a big fan of the television show "The Big Bang Theory."  To my memory TBBT has had the cast play D&D on two occasions, the most recent being the December 13th episode "The Santa Simulation."  This episode has met with quite a bit of criticism on my Twitter and Facebook feeds.  One of the most mild criticisms was Chris Pramas' post on 12/14,  though the brief conversation that followed gives a glimpse at some of the ire that the show can engender from the Geek community.

Before I continue, I'd like to point out that I'm on friendly terms with two of the writers on the show.  This isn't to say that I'm close friends or anything that intimate, but that I and my Geekerati co-host Shawna Benson have done podcast interviews with both Executive Producer David Goetsch (in 2008) and Supervising Producer Maria Ferrari  (late 2012) on separate occasions.  Maria was one of the writers of "The Santa Simulation" episode, so my curiosity wonders if some small spark for the episode came from her participation in my little podcast.  My Shatnerian hubris tells me "Of course it did," while the person who has an understanding of production schedules and how Hollywood actually works says "Puh-leeze, get over yourself."  These facts make me predisposed to be favorable to the show, and I thought everyone should know that before they read further.

The fact is that I find the Nerd Rage being tossed at the creators of THE BIG BANG THEORY to be ludicrous.  I can understand not liking "The Santa Simulation" as an episode, though I liked it and will discuss why below, but to rage at the creators accusing them of "laughing at geeks rather than laughing with them" is unmerited.  Having forced two of the writers to endure marathon live-streaming runs on my podcast, I have learned two things.

First, the people on the show are geeks.  They don't all geek out about the same things you do, but they do all geek out about aspects of geek culture.  They have writers who are comic book fanatics, Star Trek fanatics, video gamers, and hobby gamers.  Have you ever noticed the games that the cast plays at the beginning of episodes?  While the "Ticket to Ride" game going on in a recent episode was a fairly mainstream demonstration, the playing of "Talisman" during an earlier episode points to some serious Hobby Gaming on someone's part.

Second, these people are nice.  Extremely nice.  David Goetsch's only failing as a human being is that he is a Red Sox fan.  Given that the Cubs likely threw the 1918 World Series to give the Sox their much discussed "pre-curse" World Series victory, I have a particular disdain for Red Sox fans.  The fact that David Goetsch is so nice that he overcomes my anti-SoxFan bias is a testimony to how nice he truly is.  Listen to the conversations Shawna and I live-streamed with the writers.  They not only put up with my asides, meanderings, and bad jokes, they join in.  When hanging out with "real geeks," they spend not one moment laughing at us and are instead laughing with us.

Now for a discussion of "The Santa Simulation" proper, as it is an episode that has fostered so much distracting discussion on my various social network feeds.

"The Santa Simulation" is an episode that has as it's "A Storyline" that the core cast -- minus Penny -- haven't been able to play D&D as much as they like over the past few years and want to play.  They want to play so badly that they are willing to prioritize it over night's out with the women in their lives, in Sheldon's case he "forbids" his girlfriend from participating.

The first criticism that leaps out at gamers, and the one highlighted by Chris Pramas in the tweet I linked earlier, is that the show "propagates the myths that only dudes play D&D and that it's either D&D or sex."  I think that this is a fair criticism of the episode, but I'd like to examine it a little further.  It is true as far as it goes, but it should be pointed out that a) it is only Sheldon who "forbids" his girlfriend from playing, b) that Sheldon has very peculiar ideas about societal norms, and c) that Sheldon's girlfriend very much wanted to play in the game.

I'd also like to share a quick anecdote with you.  This past year, the company my friends and I started up launched our first Kickstarter.  We funded a Cthulhu Claus Holiday Card project that was illustrated by my wife Jody Lindke and that contained greetings written by Gaming God Kenneth Hite.  When the project was completed and all boxes had been shipped to backers, I approached my Friendly Local Game Store and asked if they would be interested in carrying the cards.  I also had a retailer tier available on the project.  The manager/owner of the local store said, and I paraphrase here, "the customers at this store would likely not be interested in the project as they aren't very sociable and won't have people to send them to.  They'll look at them, think they are cute, but won't buy them." 

I am not kidding.  Additionally, ZERO retailers backed the project.

That store owner was harder on the hobbyists who frequent the store than TBBT has ever been to the geek community.  The fact is that "gamer are not social" is tried and true stereotype.  The fact that hobby gaming is itself a social hobby that requires social networks -- physical ones not digital ones -- in order to fully appreciate is beside the point.  The most sociable people I know are all gamers.  Are all gamers sociable?  No, but many are and all seem to enjoy the company of their friends while playing games.  TBBT's "The Santa Simulation" at least got that part right.

Back to Chris's point though, he's right that the show didn't break stereotypes and it would have been nice if they had.  It would have been fun seeing how Penny reacted during Leonard's "Holiday Themed" D&D adventure.  I think there was some real room for comedy gold just in that thought experiment, not to mention how it would drive Sheldon crazy.  This is especially the case given that Sheldon has yet to defeat Penny at any game, and an entire episode was dedicated to Penny besting Sheldon -- though sad to say that episode (The Re-Entry Minimization) didn't include any hard core hobby games.  So I think Chris is on to something with his reaction.  TBBT had a moment when they could have gone for the harder, but funnier, storyline and they didn't.  TBBT stuck with the easy gamers are boys assumption when they could have been narratively braver.

That isn't only due to meeting stereotypes though, or from a lack of ability.  It also has to do with screenplay structure.  TBBT -- like most modern shows -- has an A and a B storyline.  Sometimes they even have a C storyline.  Given that the majority of the cast was playing D&D and they only had 3 regular characters not in the game, what would be left for the B storyline if everyone was playing the game?  That's a challenge the writers had to face, and they came up with the episode they came up with.  It was essentially "boys night vs. girls night out."  And you know what, the "boys night" looked like more fun.

That's right, the D&D game looked like more fun than going out "clubbing."  Leonard's "Let's rescue Santa Claus" D&D adventure was exactly the kind of thing gamers do for the holidays.  Savage Worlds has a free Christmas Evening adventure -- and I should point out that a couple of years ago I ran a Savages Save Santa Necessary Evil game.  RPGNow is filled with holiday themed adventures for heaven knows how many game systems.  This year I ran a Call of Cthulhu holiday themed adventure -- and no it didn't involve Cthulhu Claus.  Next year's will.  The guys were all having a great time, the play looked engaging and fun, until Sheldon ruined the boys night out due to his personal history with Santa Claus.

Let me say something that was embedded in that last paragraph again.  It made playing D&D look fun.  It started off silly, but in the end it looked like a great time.  I can see someone saying, "That's what people where afraid of in the 80s?  Really?  It looks fun and I'm going to give it a try."

Do I think the episode could have been better?  Yes.  Having Penny and Sheldon battle it out over the fate of Santa Claus would have been amazing.  Showing non-gamers being recruited to gaming was a missed opportunity for D&D evangelization.  But the episode was fun, and it made me happy that I'd already planned a holiday themed Cthulhu game.

History, Mystery, Orcus, and Cthulhu Greeting Cards

Today has been a crazy day, but from the moment it began I knew that it was the day that I would have to launch my new Kickstarter project even though I haven't finished editing the pitch video.  Don't worry, I will finish that soon and I'll be adding a couple of rewards.

I knew I had to launch the project when my daughter Mystery who was cheerfully playing with one of my Balor D&D pre-painted miniatures ran over to the shelf where my limited edition D&D mini Orcus was lying and brought him to the breakfast table to "play with his friend."  I don't know exactly what kind of games that Orcus and his pal "little Balor" play together, but I do know they include Aurora from Sleeping Beauty and Silvermist from the Tinkerbell series among their closest friends an playmates.

Who knew that Aurora and Silvermist went for the "bad boy" type. Watch out Prince Phillip.

It was the perfect combination of cute and terrifying and I took that as the sign that the time was right.

You see, I've been planning to release a Cthulhu Claus Holiday Card project for some time now as one of the offerings of the business my friends Wes and Joel formed with me last year.  Our goal is to create a number of gaming and gaming related products with an overarching aim of building community and expanding the scope of the hobby.  I think that the Cthulhu Claus Holiday Card project fits that mold perfectly.

I hope that its mix of Lovecraftian imagery adapted by the humorous hand of my wife Jody Lindke -- the first woman to win the prestigious Charles Schulz Cartooning Award -- with the spirit of the Holiday Season will make a great gift for gamers and for non-gamer pulp fans alike.  Ever since I first saw "All I want for Solstice is my Sanity" video and read through Tor's December belongs to Lovecraft blog entries, I've wanted to do a Lovecraft themed Christmas product.  The only thing I lacked was the funds to launch such a project, and now with Kickstarter I have that opportunity.

Of course, that also means that the success or failure of this project is up to you.  If you want this product, please back my project.  I promise that there will be more rewards coming -- original artwork anyone? -- and that we will have stretch goals.  Help me make this happen.

What is "The Asphyx"?

For the past few days, I have been excitedly tweeting about a horror film I adored as a child.  I first saw the film on either Bob Wilkin's classic Creature Feature program on KTVU or on the Chiller Diller Matinee program.  I cannot remember which, but I vividly remember sitting in my grandfather's den watching the story of one man's pursuit for immortality and the high costs of his obsession.

It has been many years since I have seen the film.  In all honesty, I haven't seen it since I was a child.  But I have recently acquired a copy of the movie and plan to watch it as a part of my Halloween themed October viewing.

I hope it lives up to my memories and expectations. I might just have to try to adapt the tale to a CHILL or Call of Cthulhu adventure while I'm at it.

It Appears that Guillermo Del Toro's Adaptation of "At the Mountains of Madness" is Dead

If I were to ask you how you would go about killing a possibly excellent adaptation of H.P. Lovecraft's novel At the Mountains of Madness, what would be your first answer?

When I first read that Guillermo del Toro was working on the project I had high hopes indeed. del Toro is one of the pre-eminent horror directors in the market today and his combination of surreal and horrific imagery seems a perfect match for the Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket inspired Lovecraftian tale. That was until I read that del Toro wanted to spend $150 Million on the production of the film. That is a tremendous amount of money to spend on a film, and Lovecraft has never been a name that -- as much as he inspires gamers and defined modern horror -- has ever brought people to the theater. Given that horror movies are typically lower budget films, and that the del Toro written remake of Don't Be Afraid of the Dark came at around a $13 Million budget, making an epic $150 Million Lovecraftian epic seems even more difficult sell.

Last night, the Hollywood Reporter's Heat Vision blog reported that the movie had been put in jeopardy writing, "The situation had been building to a head for a quite some time, and del Toro is not going down without a fight, exploring the option to take the project to another studio. Sources say Fox is a likely destination, since James Cameron is one of the producers and has a long association with that studio. (Other producers include Don Murphy and Susan Montford.)"

Those who follow how Hollywood works know that conflicts like these can be hints toward the demise of a project, and according to indieWire the movie is now officially dead.

As indieWire also points out, it isn't like Universal Pictures has been particularly risk averse of late, but after a string of box office fizzles it seems that they have reached their limit.

Given that the R rating and $150 budget were the major stumbling blocks, what are your thoughts?

Does a version of At the Mountains of Madness need to be rated R, or can thematically horrific moments suffice in translating the tale? Does it need gore and profanity, or just tone?

Does the film need a $150 Million budget or could a director who is less in demand than del Toro bring in a quality version for less?

One thing is certain, fans of Lovecraft are still waiting for a quality big screen version of the film. As good as the H P Lovecraft Historical Society's version of Call of Cthulhu was, it hasn't caught the imagination or passion of main stream audiences.

While we wait, might I interest you in the HPLHS's radio adaptation of Mountains? Or perhaps their upcoming film The Whisperer in the Darkness?

H.P. Lovecraft and Gameshows

When was the last time an American game show featured questions about H.P. Lovecraft?

I think we should invite this woman to GenCon this year for a charity competition against Kenneth Hite. My money is on Hite for the victory.

Nuff Said: The Stars Are Right -- CthuLegos

Who knew that you could use Legos in your regular Call of Cthulhu rpg sessions?

Cthulhu 101 by Kenneth Hite -- Go Buy It Now!!!

I have mentioned Kenneth Hite's works before on Cinerati. He's written everything from Children's books and roleplaying game products to Fortean magazine columns and "must read" companion books to the fiction of H.P. Lovecraft -- he's also written an illustrated guide to U.S. History.

Hite's latest venture requires all of the skills highlighted in Hite's wide ranging bibliography. Cthulhu 101 by Kenneth Hite is one of the most informative and entertaining For Dummies-eque books I have ever read, and it is the first in what will be a line of "101 Books" by Hite's Atomic Overmind Press. The book some how manages to be a delightful and light-hearted introduction to the fiction of H.P. Lovecraft suitable for the completely uninitiated, while also containing enough in jokes to satisfy a wide array of Lovecraft fans.

Do you have no knowledge of Cthulhu and H.P. Lovecraft? That's okay because Hite's informative and humorous tone will introduce you to the character and author in a way that piques interest without being a substitute for the experience. Hite deftly educates readers about Lovecraft, the Lovecraftian circle, and their place in modern horror fiction in bite sized content that reads like a fun conversation. Most sections begin with a question. For example, "Who is Cthulhu?" These questions are followed by a response, which may or may not be humorous. For the aforementioned question, the answer is a straightforward one:

"Cthulhu is a monstrous being invented by the author H.P. Lovecraft in the short story 'The Call of Cthulhu.' Lovecraft wrote the story in 1926, and Weird Tales magazine published it in 1928."

His answer to "I mean, what does Cthulhu look like?" is more humorous.

Are you a gamer who has played the Call of Cthulhu roleplaying game, but want to know more about the character and author? This book is a great place to start and has a reading list in the back and directs readers to some of Hite's favorite stories. If you are an old D&D gamer who has a copy of the original Deities and Demigods, there is a nice in joke for you on page 49.

Have you read all of Lovecraft's writing, but are wondering what the best film based on Lovecraft's fiction is? He's got you covered. If you want to know which Lovecraftian films to avoid, Hite's got a pretty good list. This list contains Cthulhu Mansion, and Hite's description of the film is one of the funniest film reviews I have ever read -- "There is, in fact, a mansion in this movie. The rest is lies and theft."

Hite is a little hard on August Derleth, who is to Lovecraft as L. Sprague de Camp is to Robert E Howard, but is as fair to Derleth as any Lovecraft "purist" can be. This is to say, while Hite is critical of Derleth he makes sure to point out that one of the better Mythos tales -- "The Thing that Walked on the Wind" -- is a Derleth tale.

As an aside, I'm one of those who -- like the Cimmerian -- is more forgiving of de Camp than many of my fellow Robert E Howard fans. Maybe it's because for all that de Camp butchered and infantalized Conan, deC amp's Harold Shea stories are must reads for any fan of Fantasy literature.

Hite's prose is spot on throughout the book and the illustrations by Drew Pocza are a nice counterpoint to the information -- with one exception. While Pocza's black and white illustrations are well drawn and engaging, his cover does leave something to be desired. Pocza's digital colored Cthulhu on the cover lacks the charm of the interior illustrations.

Don't let the cover, printed in the villain colors* of purple and green, fool you. This book is a must own -- go buy it now!

* -- Green and Purple are the standard villain colors in four-color comic books. Think about all the iconic villains, particularly Marvel, and how many of them are green and purple themed.

Flames Rising Interviews Award Winning Author Kenneth Hite

The excellent game industry blog Flames Rising has an interview with Game Designer and Author Kenneth Hite on their website. Earlier this month, we mentioned one of Kenneth's award winning books "The Tour de Lovecraft." We believe this award winning book is an essential entry into any horror literature fan's library. We also argued that his excellent "Trail of Cthulhu" was the best Lovecraft inspired rpg to date.

What we didn't mention, but is mentioned in the excellent interview at Flames, is that Hite has also written two Lovecraft inspired children's books. The excellent "Where the Deep Ones Are" is already available and is a wonderful tribute to a classic children's book. Coming soon is "The Antarctic Express," his tribute to a more modern children's book...with a glimpse "At the Mountains of Madness." The 3D animation of the film "The Polar Express" nearly drove me insane, maybe this is just the last piece I need in order to drift into blissful madness.

My Thoughts on the Upcoming 4th Edition of Dungeons and Dragons

Minutes after Wizards of the Coast made the announcement that there would be a 4th edition of the Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying game last week, I received two emails from concerned citizens of the roleplaying community.

The first email came from my friend Eric, who plays in my weekly Eberron game and started playing D&D with edition 3.5, who wrote, "Who else thinks that we are all doomed now? I just hope it is not like SAGA edition of Star Wars." Eric and I have had several conversations since this email, more on those later, but I think that Eric's concern might be typical of the new fan (Eric has only been playing for about a year) who is about to witness some major changes in a game he enjoys playing.

The second email I received came from the online game store "Stiggybaby's." In case you were wondering, I don't typically buy my rpg stuff online. I usually buy from a very nice independent bookstore located in Glendora, where I work, but sometimes I want to get a product I overlooked and don't want to wait four weeks until the next shipment can come. "The Ferret," over at Stiggybaby's, wrote:

I will admit I am not too excited about it. My hope is that the game system will be an improvement, or that other companies continue to support 3rd /3.5. I am an old-school gamer, been playing some kind of RPG since the 70's, and have seen some of my favorites come and go over the years, Traveler and Twilight 2000 from GDW are prime examples. I have watched my beloved D&D go from a RPG with combat, to a combat game with Role-Playing.

"The Ferret's" view seems to me to be a more moderate view of the typical resistance that previous editions of D&D have received from long time fans. "The Ferret" uses terms like "beloved," "hope," and "old-school gamer" as a way to show experience, expertise, and an overall love of the hobby. These are traits typical of the long time fan. "The Ferret's" statement lacks the overly aggressive list of reasons why his or her opinion matters more than the average consumer. It also lacks an attack at corporate greed, which is why I say that "the Ferret" is displaying a more moderate view of the typical resistance/reluctance postings one might find on any of the rpg boards out in the interwebs.



Personally, as you might have guessed, I don't agree with either of these positions. I am looking forward to the new edition of the Dungeons and Dragons game. I have several reasons for this, but before I begin let me open with a long list of my grognard credentials. Only after I have verified that I am a legitimate "old-school" gamer, will I begin my reasons for excitement/hope for the new edition. I will put these comments in blockquote, so that those of you who don't require a full background check before going on the offense will be able to skip the next part.

I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons since the first Basic Set. No...I never played with the white/brown box set with the three little books. Since Ken St. Andre was unable to figure out how to play that rules set (which is why he invented Tunnels and Trolls), I don't feel to bad that 10-year old Christian was unable to understand when to use Chainmail and when to use the new "alternative" combat rules. Besides, Chainmail was even more arcane to my inexperience 10-year old mind.

In my over 26 years of gaming, I have acquired a very large collection of roleplaying games. If you look at my gaming shelves, you will find almost everything from Aftermath to Zir'An with a vast selection of D&D/AD&D in between. I own the "Cthulhu" Deities and Demigods and almost every superhero rpg ever published. Yes, I own both Supergame and Superhero 2044. I have played games for almost 3/4 of my life and I love my hobby.

Okay, now that I am back from establishing my credibility, I can begin discussing why I am optimistic.

The primary reason I am optimistic is because Wizards is trying to bring new people into the hobby. I want to be able to play roleplaying games, with new groups, for the rest of my life. Specifically, I want to play Dungeons and Dragons with new people for the rest of my life. I have made some great friends at the gaming table, most while playing D&D. When a publisher releases a new edition, it usually does two things. First, it brings in large sums of money from existing fans who upgrade to the new edition which keeps the company in business. This is good for the hobby. Second, it usually creates "earned media" in the press and creates word of mouth. This brings in new gamers which is also good for the hobby.

Why 2008 and not later? I can think of two quick marketing reasons. First, it is the 25th anniversary of the Dragonlance setting and the 20th anniversary of the first appearance of one of the best selling characters in all of fantasy literature, Drizz't. Those are two HUGE marketing reasons to do a new edition of the game. Wizards will be able to have three major media events surrounding their game in one year, and they won't even require the 700 Club getting upset. Though that wouldn't hurt their sales either. All that press can lead to new gamers coming in. New gamers who would feel far more comfortable buying three books, one each month from May through July, than they would looking at the library shelf of 3.5 edition gamebooks. That catalogue of books that gamers use as an argument why Wizards should wait before they put out a new edition, are exactly why Wizards should put out a new edition. The timing couldn't be better.



My next reason for being excited about the new edition, is that I am sick of playing "Monte Cook's" Dungeons and Dragons. I like the current edition of the rules, but it kept too much of the old and added too much of the new. One of the designers of the next edition of D&D described the way characters will work in the new game as follows:

The next topic comes down to the types of abilities characters will have. Each class will have per-day abilities, per-encounter abilities, and at-will abilities, each tailored to that class, role, and power source. That means the wizard never needs to pull out a crossbow again, which I was surprised to hear someone in the crowd say (followed by a cheer). That's been one of own favorite examples of a crappy experience playing D&D: Running out of spells and having to resort to your stupid light crossbow. Blech. No more!

You mean a fighter might not be useless after 5th level? Huzzah! They are incorporating ideas tested in Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords? Good for them. I'd really like to see how these changes work. One of my complaints about every other edition of D&D has been how little the game "emulates" the genre it is supposedly representing. The above descriptions makes it sound like mages will act like mages in fantasy novels and that fighters will act like fighters in fantasy novels. I couldn't be more excited.



Last, but not least, I am hopeful for the new edition because I have lived through so many editions of so many roleplaying games that new editions seem to me the norm rather than exception.

How many editions has Call of Cthulhu had? Officially six, but more like ten. The first edition lasted two years and the fifth edition lasted ten, but that's only if you don't count the 20th anniversary edition. Do CoC fans complain like D&D fans? Not that I have seen.

How many editions has Champions had? Five, but that's only if you don't count the "Revised Fifth Edition" as a new edition, then it's six. Do "Hero" fans complain? Nope, they are overjoyed because they know how tenuous the string their beloved game is hanging on is.

Tunnels and Trolls? Seven, but you can play with either rules set 5.5 or 7.0 and be current.

The list goes on and on with regard to games and new editions. Heck, I just bought a third edition of Bang! the other day. New editions are good for the hobby. They sometimes hurt the checkbook, but games are supposed to be paid with disposable income anyway.