I wish the new upcoming “Tunnels and Trolls” bore any semblance to T&T, and that the new “Monsters Monsters” line didn’t really so much on AI “art.” Sigh.
I cannot tell you how surprised I was that they were shifting away from the classic system to something closer to Oath Hammer or Tiny Dungeon. I like those games, but they are not Tunnels & Trolls.
Ken St. Andre's independent stuff has always been very rough around the artistic edges. Whether it's the James L. Shipman era where Outlaw Press stole art willy nilly and put it on Ken's (and other authors') paid words or the modern AI era of his stuff, the game has always struggled with having a stable of paid artists. Liz Danforth, the best T&T artist, shifted mostly to Magic cards and so they lost a talented artist who would charge them the "friend rate."
I'm so torn in general about James L. Shipman. His Outlaw Press kept the game alive, brought people into the hobby, and provided Ken with some revenue during a down era for the game. Of course, he was stealing art to do this and when I look at some of the comments those artists made they would have let them use the art if they had been paid at all. He died in 2018 and his legacy in the hobby has largely been as a thief, which he was, but I always wonder what his legacy would have been had he cut just a little into his profit margins. He probably would have sold even more because the artists would have promoted the stuff too.
My group moved to 1st edition AD&D after a few years of 5th edition and mostly 2nd edition before that. The push to change happened all at once. I launched a throwback game around the same time all the game licensing stuff happened and the people I played with didn't like what was going on, so we just stayed with 1st edition.
Only one player hadn't played 1st edition and they laughed a lot at the rules, but after a session they seemed to adapt.
So many systems out there. Glad you are encouraging people to try them out.
I was very disappointed to see ThunderCats used 6th Edition as its mechanical foundation and am similarly disappointed in the new version of Traveller based on 5e. I would have liked to see ThunderCats use its own system or even something like Mutants & Masterminds or Savage Worlds that allowed for it to feel more unique. ThunderCats isn't really "progression fantasy," so the use of a progression system as a foundation was a poor fit in my opinion.
I don't know what I'll do with D&D versions. I'm one of the few who really liked 4e (even though I started with B/X). Even so, I was very happy when 5e first came out as it was pretty easy to run old AD&D and D&D modules with the Player's Handbook version of 5e. It's been odd for me to see players and designers more attuned to the mechanical assumptions of Powered by the Apocalypse, or other improv forward games, take a hammer and anvil to D&D in an attempt to make it fit. I should have seen it coming though. It's not like there hasn't been tension between the improv players and the wargame players since the 1970s. I was just reading Through Dungeons Deep by Robert Plamendon and seeing just how different the game he prefers is from what so many people were playing at the time. I like improv play, and have played Amber and other games designed for that style, but D&D's mechanics are miniature wargame based and it's a bad fit. You can do it, but it's like that comedic video where the person puts pieces of every shape through the square hole.
Fantastic post! I actually own Warhammer and OSE, along with many other systems, but alas, no time to play them. I’m trying to read through them at least. The Old World setting really appeals to me, and I’d love to solo TTRPGs using OSE. I think it could work really well.
I have only played it twice and just short sessions. Actually playing the warlord that killed my first character. He is brutal in combat. It is so much fun.
I still love the setting and world FASA created for Earthdawn. The step mechanic was interesting if unbalanced (I recall the edition I have said it was based on averages, but did not use 2d6 for step 7 which irked me).
Other than the “real time torches” gimmick, I think Shadowdark looks like a great option for D&D refugees :)
I wish the new upcoming “Tunnels and Trolls” bore any semblance to T&T, and that the new “Monsters Monsters” line didn’t really so much on AI “art.” Sigh.
I cannot tell you how surprised I was that they were shifting away from the classic system to something closer to Oath Hammer or Tiny Dungeon. I like those games, but they are not Tunnels & Trolls.
Ken St. Andre's independent stuff has always been very rough around the artistic edges. Whether it's the James L. Shipman era where Outlaw Press stole art willy nilly and put it on Ken's (and other authors') paid words or the modern AI era of his stuff, the game has always struggled with having a stable of paid artists. Liz Danforth, the best T&T artist, shifted mostly to Magic cards and so they lost a talented artist who would charge them the "friend rate."
I'm so torn in general about James L. Shipman. His Outlaw Press kept the game alive, brought people into the hobby, and provided Ken with some revenue during a down era for the game. Of course, he was stealing art to do this and when I look at some of the comments those artists made they would have let them use the art if they had been paid at all. He died in 2018 and his legacy in the hobby has largely been as a thief, which he was, but I always wonder what his legacy would have been had he cut just a little into his profit margins. He probably would have sold even more because the artists would have promoted the stuff too.
My group moved to 1st edition AD&D after a few years of 5th edition and mostly 2nd edition before that. The push to change happened all at once. I launched a throwback game around the same time all the game licensing stuff happened and the people I played with didn't like what was going on, so we just stayed with 1st edition.
Only one player hadn't played 1st edition and they laughed a lot at the rules, but after a session they seemed to adapt.
So many systems out there. Glad you are encouraging people to try them out.
Awesome article with some great choices. I have only played 3.5 D&D. Recently started playing Kal-Arath, which is brutal. It is a lot of fun though.
Kal-Arath is great. I might do a small press expansion of this theme and that would be a first choice.
I've got so many fantasy games I refuse to buy any more.
ThunderCats was based on D&D 2024 and that one was a hard pass
As far as D&D is concerned, 5E was the final version to ever take up space on my shelf.
Moved on a long time ago.
I was very disappointed to see ThunderCats used 6th Edition as its mechanical foundation and am similarly disappointed in the new version of Traveller based on 5e. I would have liked to see ThunderCats use its own system or even something like Mutants & Masterminds or Savage Worlds that allowed for it to feel more unique. ThunderCats isn't really "progression fantasy," so the use of a progression system as a foundation was a poor fit in my opinion.
I don't know what I'll do with D&D versions. I'm one of the few who really liked 4e (even though I started with B/X). Even so, I was very happy when 5e first came out as it was pretty easy to run old AD&D and D&D modules with the Player's Handbook version of 5e. It's been odd for me to see players and designers more attuned to the mechanical assumptions of Powered by the Apocalypse, or other improv forward games, take a hammer and anvil to D&D in an attempt to make it fit. I should have seen it coming though. It's not like there hasn't been tension between the improv players and the wargame players since the 1970s. I was just reading Through Dungeons Deep by Robert Plamendon and seeing just how different the game he prefers is from what so many people were playing at the time. I like improv play, and have played Amber and other games designed for that style, but D&D's mechanics are miniature wargame based and it's a bad fit. You can do it, but it's like that comedic video where the person puts pieces of every shape through the square hole.
I just moved on to other stuff. If it has to use D&D rules, I can do that myself
Fantastic post! I actually own Warhammer and OSE, along with many other systems, but alas, no time to play them. I’m trying to read through them at least. The Old World setting really appeals to me, and I’d love to solo TTRPGs using OSE. I think it could work really well.
OSE works very well for solo play. When I was a kid, I solo'd B/X and Tunnels and Trolls all the time.
Awesome. I’ll check out Tunnels and Trolls! Thanks.
I have only played it twice and just short sessions. Actually playing the warlord that killed my first character. He is brutal in combat. It is so much fun.
That would be cool.
I still love the setting and world FASA created for Earthdawn. The step mechanic was interesting if unbalanced (I recall the edition I have said it was based on averages, but did not use 2d6 for step 7 which irked me).
Because all dice explode in Earthdawn, 2d6 isn’t really 2d6 and has a different average.
I would put in a word for Dungeon Fantasy Role-playing Game, powered by GURPS. I have been running a version of it for about a dozen years .
Solid choice. It, and The Fantasy Trip, are on my shelf.